Episode 6 - Do People Age out of Creativity?

Rumor has it, the older we get, the less creative we become? In this episode, Pat, Drew, and Joni challenge this cultural narrative with plenty of stories and experiences that prove otherwise. They also offer insights into how best to tap into your creativity, whether you’re going on nine or ninety. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

An author, a psychotherapist, and an entrepreneur walked into a bar. What came out is Dead Frog in the Driveway, a podcast that celebrates our potential as creative beings. No matter who you are, no matter what you might believe, no matter what you've been told. If you've ever wrestled with a blank page, a stuck idea, or a shifting sense of purpose, we hope you'll find some company and maybe some inspiration from this podcast. Our show is co-hosted by author and teacher Joni B. Cole, therapist and writer Pat Williams, and me, Drew Rockwell, a writer and business entrepreneur who still believes my dead frog in the driveway story deserved a much better grade. But it's time to move on and get started with today's episode.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Hey, hi Pat. Hi, Drew. How are you guys?

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Hey, Joni. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:54

So I want to start with Pat. Because we have you to thank for this upcoming episode that I'm really excited about because you told us one subject that is dear to you is creativity in later life. And I I just think that is such a great subject. I have such strong opinions about this. But why is the subject of creativity in later life interesting to you? Why is it even an issue, you know, creativity related to age?

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Well, because I think that first of all, I felt anyway that we've lived in a culture almost forever, I suppose. Well, maybe not forever. That somehow supports the idea that there's a peak as far as adulthood is concerned, and that once you reach a certain place in that peak, which is related to age, somehow the juices start to dry up, so to speak. I think there's a there's a cultural support for that, unfortunately. And you know, the reason why it's a subject that is dear to my heart, first of all, is because it is something that's personal to me. You know, I'm eighty-one and I just finished the first draft of my first novel, which, although I've been writing most of my life, this story has been in my head for quite some time. So I really did have to push through, and I still struggle to some degree with the idea that, well, who the hell is gonna publish or be interested in a story written by a emerging writer who's 81. So of course we teach what we need to learn. So I, you know, it's important to me to at least have that topic on the table. And secondly, frankly, you know, over the years that I've been practicing, I have to say that I have tried to help many people sort of shift away from that idea, and I have to say, somewhat successfully. So people have really found their calling, their voice, their truth, no matter what age they are. You know, I've had many clients really over the years go back to school in their 60s, their 70s, even, which has been so gratifying to me to be part of that journey with people.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Well, I think there's so many mythologies out there that get in our way as artists, as creative types. And you're not kidding, that one of them out there are some finding that to me is as wrong as can be from psychologists that we reach our creativity peak between the age of 30 or early 40s. I'm like, I'm I'm still a fetus at that point. I'm like, but but this is what resides in our head. Like, we're not creative after our 30s or 40s. And boy, I tell you, you know, I'm lucky enough to be surrounded by so many creative types. But one of the biggest issues, particularly if people come to me in the workshops in their 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, even 90s, is it's too late.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

And of course, then I bear witness to how wrong that is. But we have this residing between our ears that creativity peaks in our 30s or 40s. And oh my gosh, that's just ridiculous, I think. Sure, what are some of your thoughts about this?

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Aaron Powell Certainly personal for me, too, um in in terms of my own experience. But yeah, I mean I I certainly hate pigeonholing on either end of the spectrum. You know, I I think, you know, I'm sure there's tons of absolutely brilliant things that 20-year-olds are writing, and I think there's absolutely brilliant things that 80-year-olds are writing. And I I sort of resist the notion of finding this perfect moment of creativity and thinking that's it, and everything else, and just either building up to that or declining from that. I mean, I just I resist that notion. I don't think I could have did what I did with my latest project in my 30s or 40s. I didn't have the distance and the wisdom and the perspective that I have. So I it would have been a very different story.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Yeah, I want to ask you both about that, given you've both completed or nearly completed um novels. You know, how would those novels be different if you had, with all other things being equal, if you had written them, say, 30 years ago. But before that, to reinforce again how entrenched it is that as we age, we get less creative. So you figure by the time you get in your 60s, 70s, and 80s, it must have dried up completely. But there's this quote from Voltaire that also reinforces that man can only have a certain number of teeth, hairs, and ideas. So again, this understanding that, you know, at some point we're gonna lose our imagination, our creativity. But back to my question for you guys. All things being equal, how would the novels that you've completed or have almost completed, how would they be different if you did write them, say, in your 30s?

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Boy, that's a good question. I haven't really thought about that. But I, you know, I I think what I said a little bit earlier, the line that comes to mind a little bit is actually from Weinsburg, Ohio, and it's at an another point in evolution when somebody comes of age, and I think the line is the sadness of sophistication or something like that. It was a story in Weinsburg, Ohio. But there's some perspective that when you get the long view of life. And when I was in my 30s and 40s, I just didn't have that perspective. I couldn't see it that way. It may have been the emotional fabric of the novel would have been way different.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Um, that makes sense. What about you, Pat?

SPEAKER_01 6:44

So here comes the story again.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

All right. Uh uh. Lay it on us. I love stories.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Uh-uh. So when I was in my 30s, I did uh what was called a life work planning workshop. Because I was so stuck and lost. And both in what I was doing uh, you know, for a job, I was a single parent raising two kids. I hated where I live, blah blah. So this is a 12-week thing with for like 25 people, and we had to write our autobiography. So I was in my 30s. And one of the things we had to do was write like what our if the day before we died, hopefully well into the future, what did we want to know about ourselves? And in that process, one of the things I wanted to know about myself is that I had somehow lived up to my own creative bent talent, whatever you want to call it. And in that process, I wrote a piece about um when I was five years old, I taught myself how to swim. And I set up a whole system each day so I could float on my back, which meant I could go into the deep end of the pool if my mother would let me do that, if I could float. And what I wrote about was that you know, this kid who I was had such persistence and organization and determination. And at that point in my life, I just didn't know where that had gone. And so, you know, if I had written a novel then, I wouldn't have known about that kid. I would have forgotten about that kid. You know, and that was a like a major memory for me that even at that age, you know, that I had had a certain amount of persistence and that creativity was really important to me. That's a great story.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yeah. It's interesting because I I think that we deepen our creativity, artistic endeavors when we have more maturity, more perspective, more reflection, or the ability to reflect, which still doesn't mean that you can't, for example, in your 20s write something very meaningful, but but it's an enhancement that we have that ability to have some more years, so we have more perspective. But it's a double-edged sword with creativity, though, because you know, this question, do we get less creative as we age? That's the wrong question. The question is, why would people even think that? And I think the double-edged sword of having more perspective is we also have more expertise. That's one of the biggest inhibitors to creativity, is we become experts. We become so self-conscious, we begin to think like adults, we need to look good. And the expertise, not the perspective, but the expertise that we also gain through the years is actually, I think, an inhibitor to creativity. So the question to me isn't so much do we get less creative as we age, but what are we doing as we age that makes us think we're less creative? One being that we think we have to be experts. I say this all the time. The the better the writer, the more expert the writer, the more insecurity often. But we're we're doing things that make us think we're less creative, less inspired. But it's not because it's some static thing that we become, you know, we lose our creativity. So that's one of the things I think that really can perpetuate the myth that we're less creative.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

That's a good point. I mean, I do have to add, you know, to be a shrink for a second, I also think that the capacity for self-reflection, the capacity for thinking in a complex way is not just a byproduct of aging. It's also how if that was sort of truncated or interrupted in one's childhood and one's growing up experiences, that, you know, examining something in a more complex way would be too complicated or frightening or not received well, both internally or externally. So I think sometimes people who have somehow gone through the fire, so to speak, you know, in their 50s, in their forties and fifties, which is a huge developmental stage in adult life, which is very underreported. Um, and when you come to the other side of that, very often, with or without therapy, you know, there is disability to think in a more complex way, to be more less black and white, to be more willing to, let's say, not be an expert at something.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Yeah. You know what I sometimes think about something I worried about with my project is in terms of the audience or the people reading the work. I grew up reading, like, you know, Henry James and Mark Twain, and you know, I grew up with a set of classics and novels that I read in the 60s and 70s and 80s and stuff like that. And when I think about how people consume content today, they consume it in smaller bites, you know, their uh Instagram reels and stories. You know, the notion of a story is very different than when I grew up. And I sometimes worry that my novel or the way that I approach stuff, the way I tell a story won't be interesting to today's reader or today's consumer of stories. Like I consciously wrote a lot of short chapters in my book because I was that thought was playing around in my head. Like people are not used to consuming content, you know, in the way that I grew up consuming content. So how do I, as somebody later in life, adjust my perspective to pay attention to the perspective reader?

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Well, it's a scary question. Have we aged out in terms of how we tell our stories? Yeah. But again, I kind of have this wonderful bird's eye view because I see so many writers working on their projects. And I don't buy into that. I I buy into the insight about audience and marketing. But the way you write, assuming that you've written something really powerful, revised, revised 18 million more times, is going to find its audience. So, you know, short chapters for some, longer literary chapters for others. So it it's such a good point, Drew, it gets in the way. And I think it's cool that you have an eye towards readers and readership today. But I would say that those short chapters of yours actually simply served the story. But yeah, I think again, there's so many factors coming at us that make us think we have aged out our creative lives when it's exactly the opposite. Because, Pat, what you were saying of our ability to be complex thinkers. But I think what would be really useful is for myself and hopefully listeners to pay attention to what does inspire creativity. And one thing that I do think gets in our way is we are a bit separated or isolated from the things that, for example, as children allowed us to be creative, like play. I mean, do you guys have play dates? You know, or even um isolation really, I think, is a killer of creativity. And you look at some of the factors that go into a lifestyle, maybe for some people that are older, they don't play as much. They don't have as much community, they're more isolated. It is something I think we have to pay attention to. It's harder for us to accept new ideas. Um, we're a little more set in our ways. If we look at those factors, not just based on, you know, well, we can't be creative because we're, yeah, we're what, 30, 40, apparently 35, 40 is the sweet spot and we're done. But um I think we also censor ourselves more because we're afraid. That's that expertise thing. We're afraid we'll look silly. So better to look at the factors that might make us feel distant from our creativity rather than just that it's some hard, cold fact.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

I mean, I think that's great. That's great advice, whether you're 25, 35, 45, 55, you know, whatever. Maybe there are some things about being later in life that are a function of that, like you say, that maybe we get set more on our ways, or maybe we're less playful than we were in our 30s or 40s. I'm not sure I experience it that way. But anyways, I think that's a great thing to look at no matter what.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Yeah. I mean, I find myself resistant to play, you know, and that might be surprising to you guys, but I do because I just want to get to it. But that resistance is exactly the thing that I think is one of the biggest creativity killers. To approach our creativity with a more playful attitude is actually gonna make us have a healthier creative process than not. So I can see, as I get older, a more of a resistance to play. I certainly didn't have that as a kid.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Yeah. First of all, I don't experience you that way. I was just gonna say, I think you're so playful.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

That's so interesting. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

But I also like I, you know, my own experience, and maybe it's a function of having grandkids and just um being at a s a stage in life where you're perfectly secure with who I am and what's going on in the world. I feel like I'm in a super playful part of life.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Um and you just finished a novel. So there is 100%, in my opinion, a connection between the two. Yeah. I mean, both of you. I think you're you're in communities, writing communities. Your outlook is curious, and I associate that more with young people. And you're you're playing. Yeah. I think that those factors are uh not to overuse the word, but in play with you guys, which is why it would never even occur to me you would ask the question or buy into the myth of do we age out creatively?

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Um You know, there's uh a book actually called Play, which is so interesting in terms of the idea that we're actually wired from birth to play. And that the difficulty with play, play is actually one of the things that is most affected by trauma in childhood. And it doesn't have to be overt abuse kind of thing, but it's recognizing that what interrupts that natural inclination towards play, well, how does that get interrupted, even from a neurobiological perspective, you know, the parts of the brain that are associated with play. And that there is definitely ways of first recognizing that how important it is, you know, just sort of underlining what you're saying, but also recognizing that there does have to be some kind of structure to help people who have not grown up with that sort of natural inclination open and flowing, how to sort of build the capacity for that.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

What came to mind when you were saying that was the writing process, too. And it's sort of like there has to be some structure and skills. You know, we've been talking a lot over the last few episodes about this notion of rehearsal and drafting and stuff like that. I mean, rehearsal is a form of play, you know, at least a way as a as a writer. It's giving m myself permission to take an idea and go with it and not impose a lot of rigidity around it or craft around it at that point. It's playful. Right. You know, I I had an interest in doing this project, but I needed structure and uh I needed skills and a framework for how to think about how to go about it. Without that, I think I would have floundered, frankly. For me personally. I'm trying to think about what's unique about being later in life, you know, and creativity. A lot of this stuff is true whether you're 20, 30, or 40, like I'm I'm saying. I think what makes it unique about giving yourself permission to do this work later in life, for me, is what you guys are saying. I guess there's a societal perspective that you're over the hill and you can't do it. And so you have to overcome that fear or whatever that perspective that you can't do it, I guess. I mean, I think Joni, you said something before that also resonated with me. Maybe we get a little more rigid or a little bit more in the way we think about things, like or a little bit more set in my ways, and I have to overcome that a l a little bit. But I'm not sure there's a lot of other things that are that different between a 40-year-old and a 70-year-old.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Oh, I so agree completely. It's just that we keep being handed this story that we're not creative. You know what it reminds me of? And maybe this won't make any sense to you guys or listeners, but it's that other reminder that's always out there. Women aren't funny. And the more we're told that, the least funny we think we are or can be when it's just BS. And there's ways to cultivate humor and a perspective that lets us see and appreciate the oddities of the world. And it's the same thing. So I think that inhibitors of creativity are the same across ages, but we're also dealing with the mythology that we aren't.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Sometimes I'm amazed at how creative 18-year-olds are, 17-year-olds or kids are. You know, like I think a lot about music, for example, and fabulous musicians who like express the depth of human emotion at an age like I, you know, when I I didn't even know what emotion meant. And I think this is true on both ends of the spectrum, I guess is what I'm saying, is that very young people, you know, don't have maybe the wisdom and perspective and self-reflection that has helped me be creative, can still tell an amazing story and express themselves in phenomenal ways. Right. I couldn't have personally, because I didn't have that wisdom when I was 18 or 20 or 25. You know, the self-reflection that you were talking about, Pat, really helped me, I think, think differently.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Well, maybe you did. It's just so you didn't trust me. I mean, I do have to be a pain in the neck for a second. Is that okay? Yeah. I do that. Okay. So uh I do think there is one difference. And I think that's about death. That uh the older you get, the more conscious, I think, if you're awake you are, to the idea that life is finite. And I think that can have two different impacts on a person. One is the clock is ticking, I better get the hell busy here and stop wasting time and do what I want to do, or believe in myself, or, you know, play or do all the things we're talking about, which is really what we would hope for. But I also think That there is a little bit of grieving that has to go on. And I obviously I'm talking somewhat personally too. That I think when you get to us, and I've seen this happen so many times with people, that they reach something or they find something in themselves or they experience something. And all the years that they stopped themselves from doing it or didn't experience it or didn't feel good about themselves, all the the ways that they have sort of not experienced something like their creativity, to do it at a specific time in life makes it a little bit more painful. And that the avoidance of that unconsciously sometimes is where people get stuck. I think that's a big place where people get stuck.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Speaking personally, but I do think for me, the creative process gets at essentially who you are and your perspective on life and your what you think and the stories that move you. And as you get older, and like you said, their your time is running out, the urgency of finding that, the sort of push to kind of find out r really who you are and and what makes you tick and and express that in a story that lives beyond you, and define that, that spirit and that storytelling at that stage of your life is maybe more urgent than it is when you're 20 or 30 or 40.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Yes. I mean, I I have a friend who I'm thinking about right now who's in his mid-70s and has always been a creative person in many different ways, professionally, et cetera, et cetera. But now, you know, at this point in his life, I mean, he's become this amazing creative font. I mean, he's painting, he's deciding he wants to learn more about classical music. Yeah. I mean, that's what you hope for. Yeah. And he's aware of the fact that the clock is ticking. Yeah. So it's not freezing him. Yeah. It's actually doing the opposite thing. Exactly. Yeah, he's leaning into it. Right. That makes a lot of things. But people don't always do that. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I know.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

I know.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I'd like to change the narrative then. Instead of everyone looking at why, you know, how we're aged out creatively, to acknowledge that while I think everyone at every age has creativity within them, we're actually at an advantage the older we get. Maybe because of that finite qual we're aware of our own death, which creates an urgency, certainly because of perspective, sometimes because of time, because we have more time. And if for some reason we thought that maybe our creative juices have dried up, all we need to do is look at the reasons why and address those, not just assume that that we aren't. So I think we're at an advantage in many, in many ways. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: 100%.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

100%.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

And I mean also to have someone like you were talking about earlier, Joni, about not being isolated, to have someone who believes that that is possible to help with, that's so crucial, I think. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: 100%.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It is. You were talking about a childhood story, Pat, that I found really moving and meaningful. And I have one too. It's I remember as a kid growing up, and I was so lucky because I was often told, oh, you're so creative. And I feel like that's one of the biggest gifts I've gotten from childhood on, and I cling to it. Oh, you know, you're so creative. And I can't imagine if that wasn't something I was told if I would be the person that I am today.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

But it it certainly matters. And I would like to pay that gift forward because I believe it. I I believe everyone's a creative being. And it's certainly, in addition to that, a courageous being if they show up to now assert their creativity when maybe it's been stifled a little bit. So that's something I want the listeners to know is I certainly believe everyone is a creative being until the day they draw their last breath. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

And and I like what you just said about asserting that despite maybe the popular myth, this may actually be a wonderful time in life to find that creative part of you. I certainly believe that. I do too.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Well, why don't we end with Einstein, who, as opposed to Voltaire, who says we're going to lose our teeth and our hair and our imagination, Einstein says that ideas are unlimited. And that goes with however long we live. So I'm I'm going with him.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

You're here.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

You're here.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

Listeners, thanks for tuning in to Dead Frog in the Driveway with Pat Williams, Joni Cole, and myself, Drew Rockwell. We hope you join us for more stories and conversation that explore our creative intelligence and how we can all expand our thinking, ideas, and imagination. Plus, if you'd like a heads up about future episodes, make sure to subscribe to Dead Frog in the Driveway wherever you listen to podcasts. Go figure. Subscribe to Dead Frog in the Driveway.